
Getting Burned Alive: The Abortion Issue
I had a dream last night that my unsubscribe link sent me an e-mail saying, “Would you please stop taking on divisive issues and stick to the touchy-feely stuff?” Just to be obstinate, my answer to that request was to write this article.
You’re probably familiar with Gianna Jessen from an ad the Republicans ran during the presidential campaign. She’s the young woman afflicted with cerebral palsy as a result of surviving a botched abortion. Gianna has also appeared on many television shows, including Hannity and Colmes, and, incredibly, has run marathons and travels the world speaking out on the rights of unborn babies.
Gianna, now thirty-one, says her seventeen-year-old biological mother was seven-and-a-half months pregnant when she had an abortion at a Planned Parenthood clinic. The only reason Gianna is with us today is because the abortionist was not on duty when she was born, so the nurse called an ambulance to take her to the hospital. Miraculously, she survived, but a lack of oxygen to her brain left her with what she calls “the gift of cerebral palsy.”
Gianna says she was hated at conception and hated in the foster home she was placed in as an infant. It wasn’t until she was seventeen months old that she experienced love when a woman by the name of Penny took her into her home (and Penny’s daughter later adopted her). Best of all, Gianna says she is loved by God — referring to herself as “God’s girl.”
Now, as a pro-life activist, Gianna says she is “hoping to be hated,” because “the silent holocaust didn’t win over me.” She recognizes that in today’s secular-progressive world, speaking out against what has become the status quo is an invitation to hatred. After making that point, she then asks her audiences, “Are you willing to be hated?”
Abortion aside, it’s a darn good question, because in today’s insane world, many of us are too cowardly to make our beliefs known for fear of being ostracized. Which is why the greatest civilization in the history of mankind is losing its foundational principles by default.
So, am I willing to be hated enough to say what I really believe about this explosive subject? Yes, I am. Abortion is, without question, the most divisive issue in our very divided country. And for millions of women, it’s become their sole political issue: You’re either for it or you’re against it. And if you’re against it, you’re the enemy. End of discussion.
I don’t try to appeal to single-issue thinkers, because they normally are not open to trying to at least process opposing views. A refusal to agree is a perfectly legitimate position to take, but a refusal to listen is not.
It’s not so much that you harm others by refusing to listen. It’s that you harm yourself. Why would anyone not want to open his mind to information — information that he has the option to discard if it is not to his liking?
With that, masochist that I am, I’ll weigh in …
Oversimplified, “pro-choice” people see a fetus as a parasite on a woman’s body, and believe that such a woman has a natural right to rid herself of that parasite. Though this argument is offensive to many — especially those who approach the subject from a religious point of view — honesty compels me to admit that it is a reasonable position.
On the other side of the coin is the libertarian argument that no one has a right to commit aggression — especially murder — against any other human being. The fact that I refer to it as “the libertarian argument” may be puzzling to some, given that most libertarians are pro-choice. But such libertarians seem to forget that, first and foremost, libertarianism is opposed to violence.
It is understandable, then, why Ron Paul’s anti-abortion stance has angered many libertarians — a stance based on his first-hand experience as an obstetrician who has witnessed hundreds of babies crying and gasping for air as they died in operating-room wastebaskets.
So, though a fetus may be hitching a ride on its mother’s body, many believe that, as a human being who is evolving, he/she should have the right to live. As Gianna puts it, if a woman’s life is being violated by taking away her right to an abortion, what about the rights of the baby? Again, a perfectly reasonable argument.
I believe it is the height of arrogance to opine that life begins only after a baby escapes the birth canal — particularly when he/she is sometimes killed, or left to die, after successfully making it through. I’d like to believe that a large majority of people are against killing babies who are already out of the womb, or even close to making it out. Babies who are suffocated, starved, or just thrown away are the victims of murder, plain and simple.
But what about fetuses in the second trimester of development, or even the first trimester — or who are just a few weeks past conception? I believe that the debate over when life begins is not a legitimate one. It’s just a plain medical fact that a fetus, no matter how young it may be, is in the process of evolving into a human being from the moment the miracle of conception takes place.
So, technically speaking, my opinion is that aborting a fetus is a fancy way of saying “murdering a fetus.” If a pro-choice advocate phrases it as such, then I believe the parasite argument is a legitimate one. Saying that one favors murdering an early-term human being is, I believe, a more honest way of presenting one’s argument.
Look, let’s face the reality that the pro-life/pro-choice debate will never be resolved. For Christians and people of many other faiths, abortion violates God’s will, so no compromise is possible. And if, by some miracle, we ever end up with a staunchly conservative Supreme Court and Roe v. Wade were to be overturned, the ensuing chaos and violence would make our economic collapse look like peaceful times by comparison.
Just something for all of us to think about … with an open mind. Oh, and by the way, if you’re wondering why I didn’t mention cases of incest and rape, it’s because I didn’t want to divert attention from the central issue — the question of whether so-called “abortions on demand” are moral or immoral.
Well, now I’ve gone and done it. By saying what I really believe, I’m sure I’ve managed to anger readers on both sides of the abortion issue, so, notwithstanding my unsubscribe link’s request that I stick to touchy-feely stuff, it will probably have to work overtime for a couple of days.
In any event, I have a suspicion that you have an opinion on this issue.
You have permission to reprint this article so long as you place the following wording at the end of the article:
Copyright © 2012 Robert Ringer
ROBERT RINGER is a New York Times #1 bestselling author and host of the highly acclaimed Liberty Education Interview Series, which features interviews with top political, economic, and social leaders. He has appeared on Fox News, Fox Business, The Tonight Show, Today, The Dennis Miller Show, Good Morning America, The Lars Larson Show, ABC Nightline, and The Charlie Rose Show, and has been the subject of feature articles in such major publications as Time, People, The Wall Street Journal, Fortune, Barron's, and The New York Times.
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What a breath of fresh air!
I consider myself a Christian / Classical Liberal / Libertarian but the abortion issue, isolationism and laissez-faire economics leave me cold. Thanks for having the guts to take a moral stand in an otherwise all-to-objectivist ideology. We are all humans first and should never loose sight of our ethical responsibilities to each other. I find it interesting, talking with Libertarians, how narrow minded they can be because they feel they’ve found an answer to questions like this by looking at it “objectively”. Life just isn’t all that simple.
I’ll stand up and be hated alongside you and Gianna and call abortion what I believe it to be: murder.
Abortion and slavery are moral relatives in my mind because in both cases the person in power—the slaveowner or the mother—decides their life and their rights are more important and more valuable than the life and rights of the slave or unborn baby. I don’t understand why people who would never condone slavery can not only condone but actively defend abortion.
You didn’t mention that the woman got prenant by her own will in most cases. To resent the result of her choice makes abortion just a method of birth control. That makes murder more serious.
Don
I think you are asking the wrong question — whether abortions are moral — because the meaning of “moral” is not the same for everyone. What you should be asking is if it is right to be able to enforce your particular brand of morality on someone else.
To give you an example, there are an awful lot of people dying due to lack of organ donors. In order to save their lives, should we do the “moral” thing and force every healthy person to freely donate blood and bone marrow on a regular basis, and one of their kidneys? None of those procedures is more risky or painful than a pregnancy with a Cesarian, nor does it take longer.
What both sides should be able to agree on is the prevention of unwanted conceptions. How about focusing more on sex education, and providing free contraception to those who cannot afford it?
Dear Robert,
I applaud your honesty. Thanks for having the guts to say what you believe.
Personally, I don’t believe in abortion except if the mother’s life is in danger. I also believe that abortion is a Politically Correct term for murder. At about 8 weeks, the fetus/human is fully grown and is about the size of a thumbnail. All it needs is time to develop so that it can survive on its own. I suppose the best route if one is going to abort would be to take the morning after pill and that stops the pregnancy from happening in the first place. Technically I guess that would not be an abortion, but it would serve the same purpose.
On the political side, I don’t believe it’s a political issue at all. I don’t believe you can legislate morality. It doesn’t work at all because people are going to do what they want to do anyway. Coat hanger abortions and God knows what other horrors women would do to themselves to get rid of their unwanted responsibilities would most likely become the norm. I wonder how many women would die as a result of that?
I think that the real issue is one of personal responsibility. It seems to me that people don’t want to be forced into facing and dealing with their responsibilities. For them, it’s much easier to dispose of a problem/child than to carry him or her to full term and either raise or give him/her up for adoption.
As far as rape and incest, the horrors of those crimes are almost beyond words. The people that commit them deserve whatever punishment they get…and then some. Should the child pay with his life for the crime of the sperm donor? Well, that’s a question for the mother to answer for herself. I have no business telling her one way or the other what she should or should not do. There are many stories of women who were raped and had a child that they loved and raised as if it was planned. There are many stories of women who were sorry after they had an abortion… and vice versa.
There is no easy answer to the issue because it is such a personal one. But I do know one thing. Politicians should keep their laws off of people’s bodies. It is not their business, nor will it ever be to tell women what they can and can’t do.
No doubt, you will have something to say about my comments and I look forward to reading them.
Thanks again.
Darshan Shanti
What cheeses me off is the femi-lobby playing the ultimate propoganda trick of framing it as a “woman’s right issue(right over her body)…thereby transferring it into a sacred arena…and by definition managing a fast one over society.
A bigger point is University graduates mindlessly accepting non-sequiturs…
Also, reflect…when Freakonomics authors talk about the causal chain as follows: Roe v Wade (1970) has resulted in less crime…what race are they talking about…?
Congratulations on a courageously honest post about abortion. As a small “l” libertarian, I often find myself at odds with the “pro-choice” movement over the issue of inflicting violence on an innocent, voiceless group: the unborn.
“Choice” is a bogus argument, and it’s completely bogus to say that it’s consistent with libertarian thought for the government to step in and perform it’s ONLY legitimate function by protecting innocent life from the violence of abortion.
REAL libertarians should be honest enough to admit that if you’re pregnant– THAT was your CHOICE. Now,you have to accept the personal responsibility. Murdering another human being for your convenience- economic, or otherwise is not and never will be a true libertarian “choice”.
Robert, thank you for this article….i have strong feelings with this issue as well as judges making policy from the bench. I believe that abortion is the ruin of this nation. I believe the problems we have in the USA stem from the abortion issue. The total disregard for human life starts here. It is murder and the people of the USA are numb to it because it is now found to be an acceptable practice. I think the next civil war for the USA will begin here.
Dear Mr. Ringer,
I have received your newsletter for months, and have enjoyed it immensely; however, I must admit that it was ‘with great trepidation’ that I read your entry today.
May I say, as a self-proclaimed conservative “to the Right of Reagan,” that I am proud be an (even bigger) fan of yours than I was a few minutes ago.
No hate here, my friend. Thanks for reminding me that libertarians can have some of the most common-sense arguments out there, based on logic and – yes – pure sanity.
I don’t consider myself to be ‘pro-choice’ or ‘pro-life’.
I believe that an abortion in any stage of pregnancy, for any reason, is in fact murder. Yes it is one of the Commandments not kill. But it is also a sin to have sex before marriage, commit adultery and all other sins that we have been born into.
I murdered a child when I was 18yrs old. Yes, I murdered. However, that was my choice. And I am grateful that I was allowed to make ‘my choice’. And I am also grateful that growing up in a Christian home has taught me that I and I only must be held accountable for my actions.
I believe that a human is human at the time of conception.
I believe that you must answer to God for all of your transgressions whether society believes they are transgressions or not.
Yes, Robert, you are indeed brave to tackle this subject!
Until my wife and I had our own children, I was pretty ambivalent about abortion – I suppose that means I was pro-choice. What changed my view was the development of my own children in the womb. Very early, their personalities emerged. The older child was very active from the moment my wife could feel him, the younger was much more relaxed. These personalities prevail today, 20 years later. Thus, it became clear a newborn is not a “blank slate”, but rather develops uniqueness in the womb.
Thinking more deeply about when these personalities developed, the only logical conclusion is the moment of conception. After all, it is at that moment that all the traits are established (sex, hair color, eye color, intelligence, basically everything). The miracle happens then, not at some arbitrary point afterward.
I have yet to hear a strong, logical argument in favor of abortion. The “viability of life” argument – that is that the fetus is a parasite – makes no sense. A six month old child cannot sustain itself any more than a six month old fetus. Both rely on a caregiver.
Back to your first point, the scariest part of this issue is that so many use it a litmus test when choosing their representatives. It’s an important issue, but not the only one. It’s small minds like that that led me to swear off any political aspirations years ago.
If you believe in Individual Liberty and freedom, you should believe women should be allowed to have abortions.
If you believe in limited government, you should believe that government should not be able to keep women from having abortions.
Her body. Her choice. Pregnancy is sometimes deadly. Sometimes, women die while pregnant. Sometimes, women die while giving birth. Sometimes, women die after having given birth. Many Doctors may say a woman will have a healthy pregnancy and she still may die. Doctors are not all knowing and deadly complications may take place for women who have never given birth as well for women who have had healthy pregnancies previously. If government keeps a women from having an abortion and she dies, the government has murdered the woman. If you believe government should be allowed to keep a woman from having an abortion, she is not able to have the abortion, and she dies, you have helped murder the woman. Do you care about her life?
Do you support improving prenatal care and postnatal care funded by government for the babies and the women so that infant mortality and death to women caused by pregnancy will decrease? Are you helping to fund charities that help improve prenatal care and post natal care for babies and women?
If you want there to be fewer abortions, support making it easier for adoption to take place and help fund government orphanages and religious orphanages. If you want there to be fewer abortions, you should support allowing homosexuals to marry in civil ceremonies and adopt children. Do you want to reduce the numbers of abortions in our country without abuses of government power?
If you do not care about people after they are born, you should not call yourself pro-life. If you think we should not have food stamps, Medicaid, Social Security, and Medicare, you should not call yourself pro-life. If there are not government safety nets, abortion is likely to increase.
If we improved sex education in our country, improved birth control, improved prenatal care, and improved post natal care, we might have fewer abortions and fewer women ending up dead because of pregnancy.
Sincerely,
Ken Stremsky
As all parents darned well know, that thing is still a parasite until long after birth. The best solution probably is a law that simply deregulates child-snuffing.
Congress needs to work out the exact details. To a layman, the obvious cut-off point would be legal age. I propose that a parent could legally remove the parasite anytime from conception to age 18 (adjusted to 21 in states where that is the legal age). Once a child has attained their state’s legal age, they would no longer be subject to being rubbed out by mom & dad.
Also, our justice system must deal harshly with scofflaws. In the case of a child who has attained legal age and is subsequently removed by a parent, that parent would forever lose the right to snuff any other of their children. The authorities have to draw the line.
R. D.
Florida
Response to Rich D:
Your observations about your children, both in and out of the womb, are more than just a bit interesting. Really good food for thought.
As to the litmus-test issue, it is out of control to the point of absurdity, regardless of which side of the issue one is on.
Thanks for an intelligent overview of a subject that seems to be an emotional trigger in our society.
I am pro life. Pro life in all its forms. Yet I am unwilling to make someone wrong for having an abortion or take away their ability to have free will and make the choice they see as being best for them. I believe that all life is God’s life and we should honor, respect, support and nurture all life always in all ways. Sadly us humans often fall short of that lofty goal. People are going hungry all over the world, including the USA. People are dying everyday from easily and cheaply prevented diseases. Millions of people don’t have a decent place to live, clean water to drink, or get a decent education. The list goes on and on of how we don’t honor, respect, support and nurture all life. Or even just human life.
Given all the ways we humans have found to kill, or allow the death of other humans, abortion seems like a mole hill standing before a mountain. But the abortion issue is a good tool for politicians to get people into their emotions and out of their minds, so they can be led, unthinking and sheep like, to vote for them. It also appears to be a good tool for ministers to get their collection plates full.
We humans show the utmost arrogance when we presume to know God’s mind and plan for his/her creation. We get our tiny perspective and our story, but that is not the big picture or God’s story. Maybe God’s intention and plan is for a baby to have a life of 2 months in utero and for the mother to experience all that goes with an abortion. And that happening is the unfolding of perfection for all concerned as created by God. How would we know, and who are we to judge.
Maybe God’s plan for Gianna was for her to have “the gift of cerebral palsy” so she would go on to inspire others. Maybe her life experience was what it took to bring her to God. Maybe the attempted abortion was the perfect unfoldment of God’s plan for her life and without the abortion and all she went through she would not have ended up where God wanted her to be. How would we know, and who are we to judge.
All we do is make up stories. We can make up stories about how bad abortion is, and we can make up stories about how good abortion is.
But both sides are just stories we make up. “What is” is God’s creation. “What is” is some people have abortions and some don’t. God gives us at least the appearance of having a choice. And so far our government hasn’t gotten too far in the way of us being able to exercise our God given choice. Thank God!!!
Let us leave the judgments and laws to God and let “you will reap what you sow” be good enough.
However there are some life and death choices we can and do make. Do we choose to pay our taxes and have trillions of those dollars go to finding new, bigger and better ways of killing our fellow human beings? More and better weapons of mass destruction. Do we support the enlistment, training and support of human killing machines, the military? And do we sent our men and women all over the world to kill or be killed? How is that pro life? How is that following the commandment that “Thou shall not kill?” This appears to me to be the moral equivalent of having the government using our tax dollars to pay for abortions.
There seems to be some kind of disconnect here. Is it okay to pay for, or participate in, the killing of men, women and children, the destruction of cities, towns, and villages, and everyone and everything in them, at huge expense, but not fetuses? If the people in our country were truly pro life we would not have a standing army. Is it not the primary job of an army to kill or be killed? How can someone who claims to be pro life support this? Yet everyone who pays taxes does. Some of the taxpayers aren’t directly killing people all over the world, but they are paying their mercenaries to do it for them. I wonder where the responsibility for the killing rests in God’s eyes? Them that pulls the trigger, or drops the bomb, or them issues the orders, or them that pays for it.
And if one wants to take pro life to its logical conclusion, who are we to kill cows, sheep. pigs, carrots, and cabbage? Don’t they have life, aren’t they part of God’s creation? Did God create cows just so we could slaughter them to feed our faces? That’s an interesting story. Killing is killing. Or is killing sometimes justified? Allowed? Justified by who? Who is authorized to make the exemption to God’s law “Thou shalt not kill?” Notice the law does not say “Thou shalt not kill humans.”
It is a mighty slippery slope when we start deciding which parts of God’s perfect creation is okay to kill or destroy. Just look around the planet and see how well the decisions made with our current criteria are working out.
Response to Ken Stremsky
Ken, you are correct. Some women do die during pregnancy.
Some women do die whilst giving birth.
This is a tragic fact, but a necessary risk.
Dangerous as it may be the overwhelming majority of people alive today are alive because someone took that risk of being pregnant and delivering the baby…
I’m unsure of the statistics; however I imagine the dangers associated with abortion are very high. Killing an unborn baby inside a woman’s body then extracting it sounds far more dangerous than the process of delivering it alive as the female body is designed to.
The government is not designed, nor is it responsible for the administration of people’s sex lives. I know I’d never vote for a government who wanted me to fill in paper work every time my wife and I were intimate. Its nothing to do with them. It is therefore not the responsibility of government to provide any of the services or funding you suggest.
If America and my country of Australia stopped championing the cause of, and glorifying the way of the “horny teenager” through perverse music, awful, semi-pornographic television shows, unlimited and uncontrolled alcohol and tabloid news we would see a great deal more respect and responsibility in society.
Sex would once again be associated with love. Love would no longer be defined as sex.
Whist we take a risk and some women die during pregnancy, remember EVERY aborted baby died and he didn’t get a choice.
Mark Grogan
Australia
I must respectfully disagree with the position that the “pro life” position is libertarian. It is not.
In the case where an unwanted fetus/child exists, the mother is obligated neither by dint of tort (causing the child/fetus to “live” causes no damage), or contract (no “meeting of the minds”, no consideration given by the fetus/child). As such, the the child/fetus is best described as an “innocent trespasser”, specifically one whose continued “trespass” causes ongoing cost to the mother (“cost” here includes time, health impact, etc., as well as monetary cost). Causing the mother to suffer this additional “cost”, however, can clearly be viewed as a tort.
In short, the “right to life” does not create any “obligation to support.” This is the thinking of the modern liberal, who does not understand the nature of rights. It is, I suggest, “emotional thinking” on the part of the “pro life” supporters at large which causes them muddle this concept.
The goal of the abortion is not so much to kill the fetus/child as it is to remove the child/fetus from the mother in such a way as to cost the mother as little as possible. Once that cost has been established, however, the method used to abort the pregnancy must then minimize the damage to the fetus/child.
As it stands, with no other outside influence, the cost is almost inevitably increased by any actions which increase the likelihood of the child/fetus surviving, and beyond that with minimal injury. Those who take a “pro life” stance, however, can create outside influence. Ethically, this can be done by offering incentives for the mother to continue the pregnancy or use non-fatal abortion techniques, to offset the additional costs.
That they don’t is testimony to the fact that, in general, those who advocate a “pro-life” position want the benefit by forcing others to pay for what they want; they are comfortable with coercing others to pay for their desires — just as “liberals” want others to pay the costs of others food, shelter, and medical care.
This position was made clear by the case of Jill Stanek, a nurse who claims to have witnessed aborted children/fetuses being “left to die” in a utility room at an Illinois hospital. Not once has she claimed to have offered to pay for the care those fetuses/children; instead she too, left them to die. Of course she had no obligation to support them — but neither did the mother or any of the hospital staff.
Remember: “Right to life” is categorically NOT an “obligation to support”.
Robert,
I fully agree that abortion is immoral, but having said that, I am not comfortable with making it illegal. In the United States we still accord to parents a great deal of latitude in deciding what is best for their children, whether with regard to education, forms of discipline, immunizations, and in many other ways. Having said that, there are many on the left who want to have the state take these decisions out of the hands of the parents, and I oppose all such efforts. Likewise, I oppose efforts on the right to institute laws to interfere in the decision as to whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term.
I strongly encourage people who feel as I do to publicize the nature and details of fetal development, and also to encourage those who are pregnant but do not want the child to consider bearing it and then giving it up for adoption. I am firmly convinced that we will all stand accountable before God for the choices and decisions that we make here in this life, and insofar as it lies within our power, we should teach people the difference between sin and righteousness. Everyone has the opportunity to accept or reject such teachings, and that is also part of what they will be held accountable for.
On another note, there are many in the anti-abortion camp who are eager to pass a constitutional amendment declaring that life begins at conception, but I am opposed to any such laws. Not because I do not believe that fetuses are alive, but because the logical consequences of such a law would inexorably lead to massive government intrusion in the private lives of our citizens. For example, if we must protect fetuses as persons, then every woman of childbearing age should be tested for pregnancy before being allowed to visit other countries where abortions are available. To do otherwise would amount to dereliction of our legal duty to protect our citizens. Within the country, many common forms of behavior would now become child [or fetus] abuse. Miscarriages are a common fact of life for pregnant women, but engaging in behavior that leads to a miscarriage, either deliberately or carelessly, would then constitute homicide. Do we really want to drag law-enforcement into these intimate realms of our lives?
One last point: When Sarah Palin was selected as the VP nominee, the fact that she chose to bear her youngest child, rather than abort him, despite knowing that he had Down’s Syndrome, gave her great moral authority in her opposition to abortion. She followed her conscience on an issue where it would have been very convenient to do otherwise, and no one other than her doctor and maybe her husband would even have known. However, if she had not had access to a legal abortion, then her moral authority on this issue would have evaporated. In that case, people would have just felt sorry for her, rather than admiring and respecting her for her decision.
In conclusion, I have decided that there are many injustices in this world, but turning to the government to make and enforce laws often makes things worse, and nowhere is this more true than in the area of abortion. Therefore, I have concluded to do all that I can to encourage people to behave morally and do what is right, but should they still chose to do otherwise, I will leave it to God to judge them. I trust His judgement and justice.
gpf
Just food for thought: I pondered how much the “sanctity of life” is cultural upon recently finishing Joseph Conrad’s Russian-themed novel UNDER WESTERN EYES. The narrator says the following regarding Russia’s approach toward life versus the West’s: “I think sometimes that the psychological secret of the profound difference of that people [Russia] consists in this, that they detest life, the irremediable life of the earth as it is, whereas we Westerners cherish it with perhaps an equal exaggeration of its sentimental value.”
Let’s start with “Saying that one favors murdering an early-term human being is, I believe, a more honest way of presenting one’s argument.”
So what? Rights are given based on a variety of things. PETA thinks apes should have the same rights as people. Many Americans believe it is OK to have less rights if you are a foreigner (especially if here illegally) or an Enemy Combatant (which I agree with by the way).
A clump of cells, a fetus, a baby, a teenager, an adult, a citizen – all have different sets of rights and should. Rights tend to accrue as you age or as part of belonging to a group. You have to be 35 and a citizen to be President, 21 to drink beer, 18 to go fight the enemy, 16 to drive a car, as young as 13 (in some states with parental consent) to get married (OK, many are inconsistent but when Government makes the rules this is typical). Most ‘humans’ cannot legally sign a contract until the age of 18 so yes, there may be a date where ‘murdering an early-term human being’ is acceptable. In fact, most people believe this is so or abortion would not be legal.
What actually makes a clump of cells, even those that will most likely develop to be human if nature takes its course, so special? Nothing in nature does. It is only a clump of cells that has potential of developing into a person. Its value is solely an artifact of society. To be honest, I just don’t get it. Perhaps people here can enlighten me why they care about these cells or this potential person. If your argument is religious, don’t bother – I respect that argument (though I am not religious)! I mean if you really believe there is a soul or something, and then you would, of course, think this is wrong. Are all of the people in opposition basing this on religious reasons? If not, what is your reasoning?
Thank you for writing on this topic – you’ve really made me think and question my opinions. Cheers Stuart.
I really don’t have a moral stand on this issue.
I’m just pragmatic on it.
I’m tired of my tax dollars going to support babies that the mothers didn’t want. So my position is that if the mother doesn’t want it and has the money to pay for the abortion, then I support the mother all the way. It is not the governments business to tell a woman what she can do with her body. Now, if the mother doesn’t want it and wants my tax dollars to pay for the abortion, I’m against it.
Kudos for making the arguement. I agree with your assessment. State the opinion and get out of the way. There is no resolution when both sides are so completely passionate about the answer.
Reminds me of the issue of Jews in the Middle East, or Anyone other then Muslims whe are allowed to breath or be alive on this earth. (Their arguement not mine)
When you live by abcolutes, there will always be a loser. The question is, whether the solution for being on the oposite side of the arguement is death.
Mr. Ringer:
Maybe the best way to resolve this issue is by treating it the same way as alcohol, cigarettes, or guns. We simply put a tax on it as the reality of the past shows that no one can effectively enforce a “Prohibition” on it, anyway. Underground markets will always exist. So the government might as well regulate and profit off of it. Pragmatism over controversy…
As far as the morality of the issue is concerned, Freidrich Neitzche can expose the logical fallacy of BOTH sides in their approach within his Geneology of Morals. Good Luck in your pursuit of the truth!!!
hmmm, an interesting choice in topic. In general I consider myself to be pro choice and a libertarian. I am a very pragmatic person and as a mother I know that I make choices everyday that affect the well being of my child. I try to do my best to provide for my child to the best of my ability, I try to teach him healthy eating habits, I make sure he gets excercise and gets to sleep on time, I limit his “screen” time and I pay through the nose for a private Catholic school education as well as volunteer to coach his little league team and make the time to watch all his football practices. all this while being single, working part time (in my own business, a very small struggling business)and NOT taking a dime from the government. My family is a huge help and there is no way i could do what I do for him without their help. But I also know there is no way I could do this for two children. I do think the choice of whether to carry a child to term should be left to the mother, because only she knows what she is capable of handling and what she is capable of giving to her children. I think we need to remember that how children are raised makes a huge difference in how they act as adults. If our society wants to have citizens that are caring, self sufficient, and thinkers then it needs to understand that in most cases that develops out of childhood and good (by that I mean safe, consistent, loving parenting)parenting. and I don’t believe anyone else other then the potential parents of a fetus can determine if they are capable of good parenting. Why force a bad childhood on another human being, it certainly doesn’t help our society to do so. To me that is more immoral than “murdering” a small bunch of cells that has the potential to develop into either a good or bad human being…its not the quality of the cells that make the difference it’s the quality of the environment that does. So unless all pro lifers can assure a quality environment, I think they should allow others the choice.
Just my thoughts
Dear Mark Grogan of Australia:
Thanks for commenting on what I wrote.
I am very glad women are willing to take the risk of getting pregnant and having children. It is a choice I am very glad women are willing to make. I am very glad pregnancy is not as deadly as it used to be.
I am trying to come up with ways to reduce abortions without abuse of government power. How would you reduce abortions while allowing women to keep having abortions?
Her body. Her choice. I do not want the government or anybody keeping a woman from having an abortion and putting her life at risk from pregnancy. Can an abortion harm a woman’s health and possibly kill her?Yes. This is still her choice. Her body. Her choice.
If you do not have government funding, you have more infant mortality, more women put at risk from pregnancy, and probably more abortions because of greater risk to the women. If food stamps and Medicaid cease to exist, there would most likely be more abortions. If women may not get legal abortions, they would probably get illegal abortions that are riskier.
I never mentioned paper work. If people do not want government funding, they do not have to take government funding.
I hope there will be a lot fewer abortions in the future.
I am a very big fan of adoption. I hope you will work with others to help make adoption easier and talk to people about funding orphanages.
What I do not like is government abusing the power that it has. I do not want government forcing women to have abortions. I do not want government keeping women from having abortions.
It would be great if women did not engage in a sexual activity that could get them pregnant when they did not want to get pregnant. People are able to obtain a great deal of pleasure from sex without engaging in a sexual activity that may result in pregnancy. Condoms and birth control pills are not 100 percent effective.
I hope parents will have better sex education talks with their kids starting at 10 years old or earlier. The United States of America has girls 14 years and younger getting pregnant sometimes by males who are over 18 years old.
If parents are okay with their children being taught sex education in school, I hope children will be taught sex education in school.
When I was teenager, I took a sex education course outside of the public school system that was a lot scarier and more informative than what I was taught in school.
Sincerely,
Ken Stremsky
Response to Blitz120:
The flaw in your argument is that the “innocent trespasser” didn’t just happen along and take up residence in some unsuspecting woman’s body without invitation. The woman “did something” that caused the trespasser to come into existence. She created it. She had an egg and then, due to her actions, it became a human life. Some good lawyer ought to be able to rationalize that into a contract in the same way you have rationalized that the woman has no “obligation to support” the life that she created.
All of us came into this world aided by the support of some woman. It is reasonable to assume an a priori obligation on a woman once her actions have caused another life to come into existence. (I’m not addressing victims of rape in this argument. Obviously that’s a complication that needs more consideration than this simple blog can support.)
I am mostly guided by libertarian principles. I believe that the sovereignty of the individual ought to be the highest priority in a civilized society. However, that principle cannot be fulfilled unless each sovereign individual takes responsibility for his/her actions. That must include the reckless and irresponsible creation of unwanted offspring. We all know that there are thousands of qualified would be parents who are currently waiting for a child to raise.
The bottom line is that our society is slowly deteriorating because no one wants to take responsibility for their actions. If you screw up, there are negative consequences! Why do people think that a woman should be able to murder the life within her just because it’s not convenient?
If there is no God or afterlife, then nothing one does, or does not do, in this life matters.
If there is a God or afterlife, then
everything one does, or does not do, matters.
It’s really that simple.
People have to find faith based on one’s ability to see beyond the veil of human secularism.
As a “survivor” for almost 70 years of a High Forceps very Late Term ABORTION (8-1/2 months) I have many thoughts and opinions about this subject matter and as time permits, I perhaps will follow up at a later date with a more detailed description and more accurate account of this horrendous and insidious act. But first, of course I would just say that this one ill conceived and poorly thought out event and act of cruelty forever changed my life and the paths of endeavor which have been my plight for the past nearly 70 years
Perhaps this next statement might be of some surprise for some readers, given the above paragraph, however, I am totally committed to each woman and her right to have an abortion. The main underlying concern is that of course that no fetus-child-living developing human should be allowed to LIVE after such a traumatic and horrendous procedure of human cruelty is performed for all the myriad of so-called rational reasons we have been told are acceptable for abortions. The quality of life for any survivor of abortion is (ALWAYS, WITHOUT EXCEPTION) impaired and no human should BE FORCED to endure a lifetime with such wounds that are not only physical of almost every describable nature not to mention the mental-psychological wounds as well. I only survived this horrendous act of cruelty after being ripped, torn and shredded from my mother’s womb because my will to live was stronger than to die as I was quickly placed in a crude incubator by today’s standards to “suffer alone” the indescribable pain and trauma of such a dastardly deed. It was such a hideous-horrendous act that my own Grandmother’s first words to her daughter after looking at the grisly left over’s of her first grandson were, “You’ll never raise him,” yet here I am some almost 70 years later replying to a Robert Ringer blog.
In closing, I would merely say it would have been far more humane had the doctor that performed this dastardly act of destroying the fetus-living human being at all costs to save the mother from her own mad hysteria had he committed the final act of aggression and ended my life at that very moment.
All abortions should end in the death of the fetus and no human being should be subjected to the lifetime of further “cruelty and torture” that is sure to ensue because of no cause and fault of their own!
I will perhaps add to this important and timely subject matter that Robert Ringer has so boldly chosen to discuss as time permits.
Should anyone wish to contact me personally or share their own story of survival, I can be contacted at pitch1@interserv.com
artnjazz,
Thank you for responding; however I disagree that you have demonstrated a flaw in my logic. You state that “The woman ‘did something” that caused the trespasser to come into existence.’ However, you explicitly set aside the case of rape; in addition you fail to consider cases such as failed contraception, cases of fraud/deceit (e.g., the father claimed to be sterile), innocent diminished capacity (very young mother, mental disability), and similar points along that axis. These would need to be addressed; note that my approach handles these cases cleanly and consistently. In addition, actions by the mother that might cause potential harm to the child/fetus — levels and types of exercise and nutrition, risky occupations or practices, pharmaceutical use whether medicinal or recreational, limiting access to timely medical services, etc., all come into question, and a coherent model of what is then acceptable or unacceptable (and beyond that, what penalties may be enforced should they not be deemed acceptable) must be addressed. I have yet to see anyone propose such a model in spite of my efforts to find one (not to mention my efforts to create one myself).
Similar cases can also be formulated in the more general “innocent infringer” model; for example, if one leaves the door to a building unlocked or open, or the lock to the door fails (and is opened by a gust of wind), does this obligate the owner to continue providing resources to the “innocent trespasser” upon discovery? I suggest that the owner would not.
You also state, “Some good lawyer ought to be able to rationalize that into a contract…” Perhaps, but until that argument is made, it is unfortunately begging the question. I would welcome such an argument being made, since it would allow me to examine my position more rigorously. I have tried to formulate such an argument myself in the past, and have failed. Mind you, I don’t so much want to be right in my formulation as I do to create a formulation that fits reality — whatever that may be.
Having said that, I want to expand on my position by introducing the notions of “good” and “love” into the equation.
In my view, continuing a pregnancy and raising the fetus/child to the point of self-sufficiency, is “good”. Continuing the pregnancy to birth and and giving the child/fetus up for adoption is also “good”. The motivation for either of these is “love”.
In contrast, getting pregnant and subsequently deliberately torturing or abusing the fetus/child, either before or after birth, is “evil”. At the juncture between the two is a point of “neutrality”; that is neither good nor evil. Terminating the pregnancy at minimal cost such that the minimal damage is caused to the child/fetus at that cost point is “neutral” — neither good nor evil.
If the mother were required to carry the child to term and give birth, this would no longer be a “good” act, but a “neutral” one. Would those who would make carrying to term deny that it is an “act of love?”
I absolutely agree that each individual must take personal responsibility for his or her actions. That is accomplished, I claim, by avoiding the creation of torts, willingly compensating those who are victims of any torts created anyway, and fully living up to all contracts one enters into.
I also suggest that beyond this, acting in ways that are “good” (assisting others in need with their consent, not insisting on full compensation for torts in which one is victim in all cases, and not structuring contracts one enters into advantages to one’s self that are not known and readily accepted by the other parties, etc.).
As far as I can tell, this is a realistic, consistent, and practical ethical structure that is both consistent with libertarian principles and civilization. I have been told on more than one occasion by different people (and without being solicited) that they perceive me as an extremely ethical individual. I treasure those perceptions, and consider them some measure of empirical evidence of my basic correctness in the matter.
Pich says:
As a follow up to my above post I should add for clarity that my Mother was terminally Insane (still is) and she was prone to have outrageous uncalled for fits of hysteria (still does). Through much research and hard work on my part, I found that while I was a prisoner of her womb (yes you can regress to that point if it is a necessary part of your personal life story so as to completely understand and finally except all aspects thereof) I found early into my development that my only defense against these attacks of life threatening elevated blood pressures and heart rates was to lay as motionless as I possibly could within her womb. You see, even then I was already blaming myself for something that had nothing to do with myself. At some point during the 8th month of this ill fated pregnancy the doctor deemed that her life (mine was never considered as viable) was in jeopardy so he proceeded to dilate and extract. Here I must say it was not his full intent to kill, but merely terminate the pregnancy because my mother was so totally and hysterically insane she was a danger to the both of us, but again I would like to stress that I was not considered a viable part of this equation and decision, even though I was fully developed and formed, albeit of very low birth weight due to the stressful and violent world I found myself imprisoned for some 8 months. But enough about me. Let me fast forward to year 2008 and present a few thoughts that I consider worthwhile:
Anybody who has seen the pictures of murdered aborted babies, and that is what they are at this stage of the pregnancy, that were victims of late term abortions know how disgusting this is. I am not going to post the pictures here, but you can find them if you really feel you need to see them. Instead I am going to post a description of a late term abortion by a nurse who witnessed one, it is disturbing enough:
“Dr. Haskell went in with forceps and grabbed the baby’s legs and pulled them down into the birth canal. Then he delivered the baby’s body and the arms — everything but the head. The doctor kept the head right inside the uterus . . .
“The baby’s little fingers were clasping and unclasping, and his little feet were kicking. Then the doctor stuck the scissors in the back of his head, and the baby’s arms jerked out, like a startle reaction, like a flinch, like a baby does when he thinks he is going to fall.
“The doctor opened up the scissors, stuck a high-powered suction tube into the opening, and sucked the baby’s brains out. Now the baby went completely limp . . .
“He cut the umbilical cord and delivered the placenta. He threw the dead baby in a trash pan, along with the placenta and the instruments he had just used.”
Any person who thinks that a civilized society should engage in this type of activity is very sick in my opinion. When I think about how my tax money is going to fund these murder’s of innocent children it makes me sick. It is bad enough to think that doctors are half-birthing these babies and then cutting their spinal cords or sucking out their brains and it is just as bad to think that I am helping to pay for this with my tax dollars.
The only real and compassionate answer to this ongoing dastardly and gross slaughter of innocent human life is a revolutionary new form of birth control so that children are only conceived by those that are capable of giving the complete and devoted love, home and nurturing attention the child will so desperately require to have a least an even chance of maturing into a productive and well adjusted citizen of the world. But perhaps of even more importance, those wishing to take the responsibility for a new life must prove that they are mentally mature enough and have a sincere and honest desire to bring a new and joyful life into our world. If these criteria cannot be met, then no conception should be allowed, period. A simple guideline could be easily assimilated and those wishing to have children that meet a few very simple guidelines would then be allowed to have children. We already see similar situations in other societies as far as regulating numbers of births.
A new and revolutionary form of birth control however would enhance and once and for all stop the slaughter of innocent life by the butchers that have the audacity to call themselves doctors. A form of birth control which could be easily reversed is by far the most humane and responsible answer to the deplorable conditions that we find ourselves caught up in now, in the form of the multi-billion dollar “Murder and Innocent Child” growth Industry in America 2008.
Okay Okay RR:
I can just see you jumping up and down now mumbling something like but who has the authority to play God and make such a decision; reference my latest post concerning the very divisive issue of Aborting living human beings. But remember, you are the one that had the dream and started the discussion and it is my belief that I have many valuable and intelligent insights and comments to make concerning this issue, since I am actually a real survivor of a late term abortion.
1. Perhaps you really might ask the question, and rightfully so, who has the power to choose who can and cannot conceive a child?
2. This is very simple Robert. The person or persons involved are merely judged by their own actions; examples: Do they show “self responsibility?” Are they able to provide food, shelter, love and a nurturing environment for their new child (children)?
3. Not one other person would have to be involved other than those making certain that despots, psychopaths, mass murders, rapist, mentally unstable and on and on, which would be based solely on the parties involved and their very own actions. So, in fact the parties involved would be the ones that choose, based on their very own actions.
As far as a new revolutionary form of birth control, it should be implanted at the time of birth of each child and should be such a device that could easily be turned on and off at the proper times. We have the technology to do this right now. At least we would slowly enhance the genetics of the human species into a more civilized animal by eliminating those that either cannot or will not provide the very basic necessities of rearing the best humans possible? Perhaps many would argue that this is too much like we would be playing God? But my reply would be that this seems far superior to allowing so-called doctors to rip, shred and suck the brains from newly formed unwanted infants on demand?
I hope you will post my responses so we may continue this dialogue and important timely discussion.
Pitch says:
I would like to make one other statement about this issue that you have chosen to discuss and then I will have no further comments as it seems that you have decided to close this discussion? In my first post dated 12-3-08 I defended the right of every woman to have an abortion. It is however also my belief that if each woman with an unwanted very much alive human being maturing in her womb had to watch a minimum of 2 hours of real life videos of real abortions and actually knew exactly what was going to happen to her very own living child and exactly how it would be murdered; it is my belief that there would be many more innocent babies placed for adoption in a loving and nurturing environment, instead of having their brains sucked out or thrown in a trash can while still alive only to die a slow and agonizing death. In my opinion, any woman that can justify and live with this form of murder of the most innocent victims on our planet does not have the right to be called human.
“For Christians and people of many other faiths, abortion violates God’s will, so no compromise is possible.”
As a Christian and someone on the pro-life side of the fence, I disagree. My only requirement for legal abortion is for the mother to pay every cent of it.
A woman having an abortion doesn’t effect me in any way, therefore I really have no claim to tell her she can’t do it (and opening that door opens the door for Big Brother to control other aspects of people’s lives). However, if a politician suddenly decides that abortion should be free (as in, taxpayer funded), then I have a problem with it. Regardless of the legality of the act itself, the cost should still remain the woman’s responsiblity.